Yes, I'm just this petty when it comes to Tyrus Thomas

"Pwned."

Why did I laughed for 10 minutes straight when I read that?!

First of all, I mean no personal ill will in our disagreements and actually, the fact that you disagree with me is one of the main reasons why I read your site. I’m not always right and it’s good to get another perspective on things so I appreciate your efforts.

Two reasons why the Bulls lost to the Pacers (from your own employer and I agree with them) “But as with many games earlier in the season, the Bulls couldn't close. They went flat on offense -- 17 points in the quarter on 6-for-22 (27.3 percent) shooting -- and couldn't keep Pacers point guard T.J. Ford (nine of his 19 points in the fourth) out of the lane or Troy Murphy (27 points, 14 rebounds) off the offensive glass.” I watched the game, the reason why TT only grabbed five boards wasn’t because other Bulls players were grabbing them.

Onto TT, here are the things…..

1. Don’t be blinded by numbers in basketball. Just about anyone in the NBA can put up 20 pts on a given night because putting the ball in the basket really isn’t that difficult to do with that level of talent. Personally I believe that if a starting PF can’t average 8 rebounds a game when he’s getting 30 minutes or more, he’s worthless. That’s 2 rebounds every quarter and with all the misses the Bulls have that should be easy to do (see Noah and his 9.4 rpg this month when he does very little). If you still need a stat though, the Bulls give up the third most offensive rebounds in the NBA. That falls on Noah and Thomas primarily. So, while the Bulls were barely outrebounded by the Pacers the other night (49-46) they still gave up 17 offensive rebounds. That’s a lot. Especially when the Pacers are a team that hangs around the 3 pt. line. If you need another stat, the Bulls starting power forward is shooting under 45% from the floor on the season. Also, his rebounds per 36 minutes have gone down every year since his rookie season (10.0, 9.3, 8.4) –basketball-reference website. If you want to stay with Hollinger, TT’s PER is 15.8 this season, the first time he’s been above the league average of 15.0. On top of that he’s not even in the Top 50 in Hollinger’s Rebound rate (the percentage of missed shots that a player rebounds), ranking him behind luminaries such as….Aaron Gray, Dan Gadzuric, Chuck Hayes and Chris Wilcox. Gadzuric is #50 with a RR of 15.5, TT has a RR of 13.3 so I’m guessing he’s struggling to be in the Top 100 (I don’t have Insider so I can’t check)

2. NBA teams watch a lot of film, or at least the coaches should, and I have to believe that TT’s play actually hurts the eyes and hearts of the Bulls staff. Sure it’s nice to see TT fly from one side of the lane to another to block a shot every once in awhile but he tries to do it all the time…..thus, he’s leaving open the weak side for easy rebounds/putbacks (see point 1). Good PF’s don’t do that. Since flying across the lane isn’t a normal defensive play, the perimeter guys never know when to drop down to cover that weak side he’s left open. He’s also slow to double team (see Miami game) and teams that pass the ball exploit that. There are specific defensive principles in basketball and TT really doesn’t follow them much. The guy is a great athlete so when he’s 1 on 1 with a PG/SG/SF he can guard them but when it comes to team defense, he stinks. This is also why he kills at Thorpe’s camps. But, record a Bulls game and then go back and watch every defensive possession the Bulls have and see for yourself. TT, Rose and Deng just aren’t good team defenders. Noah is so, so but he doesn’t move around enough to really screw things up. Gordon is in a class all by himself and that’s not a compliment.

3. Next, I’m not going to get into the LaMarcus Aldridge thing. I don’t think he’s a true power forward or a viable option at the position for a championship team.

4. For a guy who has had his effort questioned a lot, it bothers me that TT is slowing down conveniently right after the trade deadline. His numbers are still enough to get him a new contract but not enough to be the player he could be.

5. My dislike for TT stems from the fact that so many people on a certain website that I won’t name wanted the Bulls to give TT ‘entitlement minutes’ when he wasn’t prepared to play basketball at a NBA level. This blind love is common with teams that has fans that aren’t knowledgeable but that shouldn’t be the case with the Bulls. I understand that a lot of Bulls fans currently on the net were very, very young when the Bulls won their six championships (and all the years they worked up to it) so maybe they are blinded by the shine of the Larry O’Brien trophies and really don’t know what it took to get there. You don’t just give minutes to a guy and if you give minutes to a guy (Pippen, Ho. Grant) you hold them accountable for what they do. Team defense is the key to championships (see Tex Winters and the Dobermans), not blocking shots into the third row of the UC. We seem to have gotten to the point as fans where it’s easier to blame the coach instead of the player when it should be the other way around.

Look, TT has improved since last season but he still has a long, long way to go. I don’t have as much of a problem with him on the offensive end as I do the defensive end. At least now he seems to know the plays and where to be at. His 12 to 17 foot jumper is pretty good and when he wants to, he can get to the line. He’s not the greatest passer but I’ve seen worse and his whirling dervish drives to the basket are less frequent. His shot selection is fine for a player on a team that doesn’t have a lot of scorers and while he struggles to finish around the rim, at least he’s in the scrum. Still, I need to see more all around consistency from TT before I hop on the bandwagon.

As fans, make the players earn your fandom instead of just giving it to them.

"Personally I believe that if a starting PF can’t average 8 rebounds a game when he’s getting 30 minutes or more, he’s worthless."

Ideally, sure, but there are only 22 guys in the entire league averaging 8 or more boards a night. That's not even one per team (math!). And Tyrus doesn't have to be the best rebounder on the Bulls - that's Noah's role. Is Tyrus a fantastic rebounder? No, but he's more than serviceable. I doubt the Bulls will lose many games because of his failures to control the boards.

As far as rebound rate goes, everything Hollinger does deals with per minute performance. That's why Marreese Speights has league's 20th best PER (or so) right now: no one would ever argue that he's a top 20 or even top 100 player in the league, he benefits in PER because he gets a limited number of minutes a game and when hes out there he plays balls to the wall.

Same thing for rebound rate: Dan Gadzuric grabs just over 3 boards a game in 12 minutes. Gray hardly plays either. So yeah, their efficiency stats are going to be skewed. Boards per 48 mins may be a better indicator, Tyrus is 49th in the league there. It doesn't sound great, but he's second on the team (behind Noah who ranks 10th in the league), and with 30 teams in the league, 49 isn't too bad.

I don't think TT is slowing down either after the All-Star break. He played one really awful game, one great game, one decent game. He was ok tonight, too. I think you're just looking for more holes to poke in him, I feel like his effort has been very good the entire season.

I'm glad you agree that the Hollinger stats can be worthless, too.

"Ideally, sure, but there are only 22 guys in the entire league averaging 8 or more boards a night. That's not even one per team (math!). And Tyrus doesn't have to be the best rebounder on the Bulls - that's Noah's role. Is Tyrus a fantastic rebounder? No, but he's more than serviceable. I doubt the Bulls will lose many games because of his failures to control the boards."

That's why there are only so many 'elite' PF's in the game. If TT wants to be one then he needs to rebounds and defend better. AND the Bulls just lost a game against the Pacers because TT couldn't stop the opponent on the offensive boards.

He had 3 rebounds last night and didn't hit double digits for points until garbage time. If you watched the game, I mean, really watched the game you can't say the effort was there. There were a lot of times where the ball was being tipped around where TT was just standing there 5 feet away. He was very slow to get up and down the court. His switching on defense was less than to be desired, if the Bulls were even supposed to be switching. Did you see Lewis go off in the first quarter and then Vinny had to bring in Tim Thomas? TT does not play 'balls to the walls'. He got one steal because he was too lazy to run down on defense and he scared the bejeezus out of Alston to steal the ball. If Tim Thomas hadn't played well the Bulls very well might have lost this game. Also, watch out for the other TT to start stealing more and more minutes.

One last thing, the Bulls are 13-16 since TT began starting for them on December 26th. Of course they are going to have a winning record when he's playing well. Of course, his stats are going to be better when he's playing well. You have to look at the entire picture and not just the corner of it.

Pacer Plug: Troy Murphy is beasting it up on the boards this season!

A) I don't think Hollinger stats are worthless, they're a good resource that have some obvious flaws. It's pretty stupid to put everything into one number, and PER is by no means a be all-end all in terms of putting a value on a basketball player, but it definitely has value and is worth checking out from time to time.

B) I'm not sure the argument is whether Tyrus can be an elite forward (I'm not sure anyone thinks that), rather that he's a useful player (up until a month ago most people considered him a colossal draft bust). He's also the best option the Bulls have at the position - he's probably their third or fourth best player at this point. No one else should be playing more minutes than him at power forward - unless you think sitting him 'teaches him a lesson' and would make him more productive in the future, which is a decent argument but it doesn't really seem like a worthwhile strategy at this point.

And if you're talking about character issues, Tim Thomas has always been a posterchild for that. Everything is fine and dandy now, but it has only been two games.

I'm glad we can agree on some things. Of course, that's why I said Hollinger's stats CAN be worthless, not that they are.

As the #4 pick in the draft the player should become an elite player at their position. Those are the expectations when drafted that high. We agree though, no one on this Bulls team should be playing more minutes than him at PF. He's past the point of being taught lessons, he is what he is at this point.

I wasn't talking about character issues, i think he's only had one of those, I was just saying he's lazy.